r/metroidvania • u/SpareHeavy4172 • Mar 08 '26
Image I HATE Team Cherry for what they did to the Metroidvania
Metroidvania has always been my favorite genre, but I just can't enjoy it as much as I did before Hollow Knight. Because of that game and the massive success it achieved, most indie and Metroidvania developers are now shoving Soulslike mechanics into their games just to chase that same success.
The problem is, Soulslike is my absolute least favorite genre. I hate losing what I’ve spent hours grinding for, and I absolutely despise doing the "walk of shame" (boss runbacks) over and over again every time I die. I really wish developers would stop mixing the best genre with the worst one.
So, thank you Team Cherry, for ruining it for me.
P.S. This is just my opinion and I really needed to vent. I know a lot of you won't agree, but I just had to get it off my chest.
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u/Ness_Stan Mar 08 '26
nah, you're not looking hard enough. go play microvania and pick up UFO 50 for the metroidvania games in those
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u/LaplaceUniverse Mar 08 '26
microvania???
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u/LegendarySpark Mar 08 '26
Actual facts. There's somewhere between 5000 and 10000 MVs to choose from and people just want to complain about the same, like, 30 over and over. In a market this intensely saturated, you have to actually go look. The one thing you can't do is just sit there passively and expect to be fed things with no effort, and then complain that you weren't fed the right thing. If you sit around and wait for people to feed you things, they're going to be offering things they like.
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u/EyeFit Mar 08 '26
Yeah. I never play those anymore. It's a legit design mechanic, but it's like eating the same meal for dinner every night. I like some variety. To me the thing I least enjoy is the heavy slow aesthetic that is antithetical to the reason why I like games in the genre.
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u/DrKrFfXx Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
I like well implemented souls mechanics, but even Fromsoft has backed away from boss runbacks.
Just massive waste of time.
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u/mr_dfuse2 Mar 08 '26
they finally did? in what game? loved ds1 and ds3 except for those runbacks and wasn't planning on playing their games because of that
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u/Omega346 Mar 08 '26
Have you played Elden Ring? Many bosses in that game have a site of grace (bonfire) very close to the boss, and they also have things called Stakes of Marika which are like checkpoints that you can respawn at when you die which are often placed in front of tough encounters in the open world that don’t happen to have a grace nearby. There are still a couple long runbacks but nothing nearly as bad as the worst of the dark souls games
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u/Omega346 Mar 08 '26
I should also add that if you’re a fan of the Metroidvania genre you should play Elden Ring. It’s obviously more of an open world than an ability-gated progression, but it shares lots of the Metroidvania qualities. The massive underground and overworld areas connect with each other in interesting ways, there is a great sense of exploring the world, and there are often several areas you can go at all times, so if you’re ever stuck on one boss you can leave and do other things and find “upgrades” like level up, find upgrade materials, or find better weapons or summons (there are summons in Elden Ring called spirit ashes). Also because it’s one of the best games of all time.
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u/Wolfofdoom3 Mar 08 '26
While I did enjoy Elden ring somewhat, if you're the type of metroidvania fan that likes good movement, you won't find it in Elden ring. I recommend Sekiro instead, it's actually fun to move around.
Elden ring doesn't have many boss runbacks, but the problem with them for me is not that you have to do the runback in itself. The problem is that it's boring to move.
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u/mr_dfuse2 Mar 08 '26
i love exploration in games, one day perhaps i'll try elden ring but don't. have time for long games the coming years
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u/Apex_Konchu Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Elden Ring lets you respawn directly outside the arena for the vast majority of bosses. There are still a few bosses with short runbacks, but they're nowhere near as bad as Dark Souls runbacks.
Boss runbacks also aren't much of a problem in Sekiro, primarily because you can run very fast in that game so it never takes too long to get anywhere.
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u/ItzPayDay123 Mar 08 '26
Elden Ring lacks runbacks for the most part due to stakes of Marika, which are like checkpoints usually placed outside of boss arenas.
The only two boss runbacks I can think of (that still aren't nearly as bad as DS1/2 ones) don't have these stakes for lore/consistency reasons.
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u/themadscientist420 Mar 08 '26
Elden ring usually there's a "stake of Marika" outside boss rooms and you get to choose whether to respawn at the site of grace (i.e. bonfire) or at the stake of Marika.
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
You know boss runback defenders would actually have a point in Silksong with the reasoning "the boss runback is part of the boss fight" if it weren't for the fact there's only like 3 boss runbacks that have any semblance of a challenge. It's only like 3, most of the boss runbacks are just boring screen runs where you just run past the enemies. Even if I think the reasoning would just mean the boss fight has a shitty first phase, even if I still got bored with Last Judge's boss runback after the first few times, it'd still at least be a reasoning to defend boss runbacks, but no, it's not even true in Silksong for most of the time.
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u/g0n1s4 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Silksong movement is crazy good so it doesn't feel that bad, and almost none of them are long. The runback to Beastfly and Last Judge made me way better at platforming.
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u/spoketherefore Mar 08 '26
10/10 game but the runbacks were super annoying, especially groal.
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u/MakoMary Mar 08 '26
The thing about runbacks is like, I can do them just fine, they're just really lame. Sure, let me run down this corridor, and then go up and all the way across the other corridor, and make sure I don't get bumped or fall into the Shit Water before I get there, and then fight a bunch of boring arena mooks, and THEN I can fight the boss again. Just let me fight the boss, man. Hell, The Last Judge was genuinely fun, even. Why do I need to waste time before a retry?
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u/spoketherefore Mar 08 '26
100%. All of these months later and those runbacks still annoy me.
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u/MakoMary Mar 08 '26
A lot of Silksong discourse revolves around "this is too hard!" vs "you're just bad at the game lol", and I think what a lot of these arguments miss is that a lot of mechanics aren't really hard so much as just... irritating. If you lose your beads on a corpse run, you can grind them back up, but that's boring. You can bank them, but that cuts into your overall supply, so that's more time getting beads. Runbacks were never really hard for me (unless you count Coral Tower), but when you're dying and retrying a lot, it adds up to a lot of time not doing anything fun or engaging, much like an unskippable cutscene. And grinding for Shards when tools are already limited per run will never not confuse me.
And when your game is a 30-to-60 hour epic with an expansive, nonlinear world they want you to dig around in, all those little irritations start to pile up, y'know?
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u/g0n1s4 Mar 08 '26
and almost none of them are long
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u/Party_Importance_722 Mar 08 '26
Downvoted for speaking the truth. Legit none of the runbacks besides Groal and maybe Enraged Conchfly are that long.
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u/Redravel Mar 08 '26
I think casual side is even more hostile than git gud crowd for a long while now. Yeah, dying sucks. Maybe don't die next time? Idk? Wasting 10 seconds is a pretty mild incently to not die.
And instantly, the kids and wives and stressful job and only 30 minutes to sit down before taking another business trip to japan have to be involved. Maybe a handheld console could fix that?
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u/BlindSoulTR Mar 08 '26
tell me any runback other than groal that was longer than 30 seconds. There is 1 bad runback and thats it , lowkey wake up.
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u/spoketherefore Mar 08 '26
Off the top of my head—Conchfly, Clover Dancers. Thirty seconds is already too long.
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u/BlindSoulTR Mar 08 '26
"thirty seconds is too long" yeah ts has to be ragebait. Did you ever play a game with bad runbacks at all? If 30 seconds is that important dont play a game that has 80h+ content.
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u/spoketherefore Mar 10 '26
Yes, I’ve pretty much played all souls games. I don’t know why you dick ride the runbacks so hard. The runbacks to Groal, Conch, Verdania, Last Judge, and others were tedious and unnecessary, IMO. There’s a reason Elden Ring included Stakes of Marika. Fromsoft learned from past mistakes. In the hopes that devs take heed, I’m going to continue to advocate for the elimination of this tedium.
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u/BlindSoulTR Mar 11 '26
Only valid is groal , hell last judge runback was actually fun i always found new ways and shortcuts , it felt like a phase of the boss. Dont know why a 30 seconds platforming section for a easy boss is making you so butthurt but dont play any metroidvanias i guess? Unless you like complaining about unimportant shit.
Also renella runback was worse than any silksong runback
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u/spoketherefore Mar 11 '26
Only valid in your opinion. Look around, a lot of people feel this way. I want games to be better. And they’d be better without runbacks. They’re not deal breakers for me.
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u/BlindSoulTR Mar 11 '26
If you look around you can also see alot of people finding this the biggest non issue ever.
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u/DrKrFfXx Mar 08 '26
Go and walk out and about after losing to a boss if you like, I rather retry immediately.
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u/g0n1s4 Mar 08 '26
It's not that big of a deal in this game. Not worth enough the discussion it gets. Barely any long runbacks
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u/Redravel Mar 08 '26
Would Silksong be a better game if Hornet could foresight-projecting Subway Surfers directly into her map?
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u/Redravel Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
By making every boss with one shot/delay to retain the same tension and completely disconnect the level design from the difficulty? hell naw. I've heard some older fans hate that change even. It's just boss rush in disguise and you get Nightreign. The boring first phase/hp bar is the runback now and every major boss has one.
Silksong literally has level integrated into the boss. They give a bench right after the bossgate if the difficulty is isolated.
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u/amc9988 Mar 08 '26
I don't mind hard bosses, but I still hate the runbacks, I finished silksong 100% and still thinks runbacks provide zero value other than wasting your time for no reason
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u/BleakHorse Mar 08 '26
Just gonna point out that both Metroid and Castlevania, the games we get the term from, had limited saving mechanics throughout most of their runs. When you died without saving you didnt just lose what you had on you, you lost entire heaps of progress. Beat a boss and then die? Go back and beat the boss again. Get a new weapon or item and then die? Go get the new weapon again. Grind for hours to get a specific drop and then die? Time to start the grind again. If you're blaming Soulslike gameplay for losing hours of grinding, you clearly haven't played many Metroidvanias.
Also, blaming a popular game for popularizing a mechanic you dont like, even as misguided as this post already is, is completely idiotic. It's not Team Cherry's fault this style got popular, and it's not their fault people have emulated it. Hell, I doubt Team Cherry was even the first to do it, and I can guarantee if they hadn't someone else would have.
To quote a friend of mine's favorite meme "This is bait"
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
Castlevania SOTN had you reload saves. This means if you failed a boss fight you'd just reload the amount of hearts and the subweapon you had when you last saved, you didn't need to do grinding for hearts or subweapons because of that. Savepoints were also generally placed near boss arenas. Also why the fuck would you not save, that's stupid.
You didn't play the game. What is this shitty revision just to defend soulslike mechanics?
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u/BleakHorse Mar 08 '26
I completed every Castlevania from SOTN and onward, so I did actually play them. In fact, Dawn of Sorrow is one of my alltime favorite games ever. And yes, you would reload if you failed a boss fight. But if you died AFTER a boss fight without getting back to the save room, which is what I said, you'd have to do the boss fight again. That's not something you have to do with Hollow Knight or Silksong. You can die the second after the boss does and you'd still have the boss beaten. But their post was specifically about hours of grinding. Any drops or items you acquire during that hour of grinding is saved in a game with "Soulslike" mechanics. Not so in a classic Metroidvania. Sure, you lose "souls" or whatever the currency is in the game in question, but you can still recover them if you make it back without dying. Again, not something you can do in most traditional Metroidvainias.
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
Most of the boss arenas are near savepoints, the fuck are you talking about?
Did you not read the part where I said "Also why the fuck would you not save, that's stupid." Wow shocker, game is built around using a save file, punishes the player for not saving.
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u/BleakHorse Mar 08 '26
Wow shocker, you're fixated on the boss concept without realizing that you can still die even while returning to a save room! There are usually still enemies in the rooms between the save and the boss, my friend. Beat a boss with one health point left and try to go save. Also, you're completely ignoring half the point of my post because you wanna be "right" or something stupid, except my point still stands about both dying after a boss and dying after grinding. The best point you have is "jUsT sAvE sTuPiD"
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
If you geniunely die to an enemy on the way to saving in those scenarios, you really do deserve that lost. You're thinking of hypotheticals of where that's such a stupid mistake of the player and complaining about it. Also later Castlevania games would introduce items you can use to teleport you to a last save point or main base.
Why the fuck would you not take time to remember to save while grinding? Saving while grinding is basic fucking common sense for any game with grinding. And again it's ironic you think Silksong saves you time with grinding, when Silksong literally pushes you to grind if you use up tool shards for its boss fights on failed boss attempts because of its shitty tool shard mechanic. Meanwhile in Castlevania you don't have to worry about grinding as much for hearts, because get this. IT JUST RELOADS THE AMOUNT OF HEARTS YOU HAD WHEN YOU LAST SAVED.
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u/BleakHorse Mar 08 '26
Riiiight okay, you're just an idiot. Is your logic "Players dont make mistakes"? Because if so, then it's pretty fucking stupid of you to waste all your tool shards on a boss. Just get good bro.
Also, yeah, sure, hearts are reloaded. Great, the easiest consumable in the game is returned to you. I'd clap but I dont care enough. I dont think I've ever had to grind hearts in any of the Castlevania games I've ever played. And I dont particularly like the tool mechanic of Silksong, so whatever. But you know what I do grind for in games? Money, item drops, experience. If you die during a grind session in Hollow Knight, you just go and get the stuff you lost. If you die during a grind session in in Castlevania, there is no recovering that stuff. But honestly, you're a broken record at this point so I'm gonna stop responding now. Have a nice day!
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u/pathofnut Mar 12 '26
I was laughing so hard while I read this lol, this sub is gold.
You were clearly trying to argue with a teenager who has never played an old school metroidvania. And the people who downvoted you/upvoted him are more of the same ahaha
Hollow Knight and derivatives have really rotten zoomer's brains. I actually think Hollow and Blasphemous are garbage games that only sell due to edgy/emo aesthetics and the "its hardcore" narrative when in fact they are mindlessly easy games so that these people can pat themselves in the back.
Cancer gamer culture as replacement of social life and real achievements, back in the day both things werent mutually exclusive. But Im digressing.
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u/Biff3070 Mar 08 '26
This is a dumb take and frankly sounds like you've never played a metroid or castlevania game.
Yes there is a bit of anxiety as you search for a save room in a new area... but they're never far off and ALWAYS right outside bossrooms. Why are you entering the bossroom door without going in the unexplored room directly across the hall? (Hint: theres a save room in there)
In a soulslike, if you take a wrong turn and die in a sketchy area, you HAVE to return there to gather your soul, or whatever. If you die in a sketchy area in a castlevania or metroid, you just start at your save and choose another path if you want.
Both type of games have saverooms and you should never be going "hours" without hitting one. Only difference is the backtracking for souls after you die.
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u/BleakHorse Mar 08 '26
Yeah, not engaging with this. You're regurgitating what the other idiot said, so just read my other replies. Have a nice day!
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u/Biff3070 Mar 08 '26
Ok just read.
I'm doubling down on the fact that you sound like you've never played a traditional castlevania game.
Either that or I'd love to hear why you're chosing not to save after a boss fight. The save rooms are literal feet away.
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u/BleakHorse Mar 08 '26
You clearly didn't read if you're still asking the same stupid questions. The point isn't about just bosses. But apparently that's the only scenario people like you can even comprehend.
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u/Wolfofdoom3 Mar 08 '26
There's plenty of games without this mechanic. There's also no way in hell you spent hours grinding for currency, many of these games have later mobs that give you so much in comparison to earlier areas that it doesn't matter, 10 minutes of grinding would be enough to recover anything. Also if you could survive for entire hours with the currency you could also spend it during those hours.
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u/g0n1s4 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Before Metroidvanias used the classic "you lose, you send back in time to the last save state" and that was TRUE loss of progression. Copying the method HK uses is 1000 times better. Losing the well-earned souls in Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow felt like SHIT.
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u/panopticon_aversion Mar 08 '26
I’d almost prefer that sometimes. If you’ve been saving regularly then you won’t lose anything. But with the corpserun mechanic you can lose a ton of geo, but any geo harvested from the environment won’t reset.
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u/g0n1s4 Mar 08 '26
The chances of dying twice on a row before getting your money back is way lower than the chance of dying once. It will rarely happen.
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u/panopticon_aversion Mar 08 '26
It’s happened a few times to me. When starting out it’s especially disheartening. The usual way it happens is going too far into a new area where the map’s not unlocked, getting lost, dying, and being unable to find my way back before dying a second time.
Alternatively there’s a series of tough rooms, and I die several rooms in, then fail to make it back.
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u/BlindSoulTR Mar 08 '26
"I hate losing what I’ve spent hours grinding for" the only thing you lsoe is money , who the hell grinds hours for money? And there are plenty ways to save your money. There was an item in silksong that returned your money immediatly and the game gave plenty of those.
"absolutely despise doing the "walk of shame" (boss runbacks)" genbiuenly the only bad runback was groal , and thats because of the secret bench. None other runback takes any longer than 30 seconds and complaining about it is just dumb.
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u/Myhouseburnsatm Mar 08 '26
What are you talking about? Metroidvanias have always been littered with tough boss encounters and long runbacks way before HK, going back into the 90s.
You really oughta play anything prior to 2017 if you think team cherry set some sort of trend. They did not.
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
I feel like gamers can't handle game overs any more. I remember 3 deaths = a runback of the entire game.
Perspective is a trip!
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
What fucking MV Castlevania games are you playing where it has long boss runbacks? What fucking Metroid games are you playing where the boss fights are hard?
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u/Lord_Spy Hollow Knight Mar 08 '26
Metroid had several considerably long runbacks, sometimes paired with nontrivial bosses. The power bomb drone, the Spider Guardian, the spider in Fusion, etc.
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u/BigChungusOP Mar 08 '26
Losing souls or whatever has never been an issue for me. I just shrug and keep playing. It’s not like you’re not gonna be able to finish the game by losing something that takes a few minutes to grind. I prefer that to losing actual progress after dying.
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
You know it feels funny that games like Hollow Knight, Nine Sols and Sekiro I really like but I utterly despise their death penalty punishment. I geniunely think they'd be straight up better without them.
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u/susirian Mar 08 '26
I hate them,too.Nothing else in the genre is anywhere as good as their products :(
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u/iggnifyre Mar 08 '26
It is frankly insane to blame a studio for making a good game. Why not blame the imitators, you know, the one actually making the games you're annoyed by?
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u/cornimgameplays Mar 08 '26
Y'all are so dramatic...
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
to the point I don't even believe they're actual fans of the genre
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u/settingdogstar Mar 08 '26
Seriously fucking insane behvarior thinking 2 little games control the minds of every indie developer and stopped them from making non-soulslike games.
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
I just see someone in tears as final judge squats over their corpse. A sort of.. hurt of the butt.
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u/IamanelephantThird Sequence Breaker Mar 08 '26
Long runbacks have been a thing in metroidvanias from the start.
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
Not in Castlevania games. Also Metroid games aren't known to have hard boss fights, meanwhile boss fights in HK and SS are harder.
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u/coxy_artist Mar 08 '26
Wait, when you die in Castlevania, don't you go back to your last save point? That's what I remember anyways...
Also yeah, the bosses and levels are hard (I almost lost it today in Mount Fay in SS). But that's kind of the point. After repetition, you basically are forced to master moves and special attacks to progress in the game. Then when bosses come along, they aren't that hard.
The whole point of the game is that's its challenging, not some feel good walk though adventure just to finish casually. To finish these games gives you bragging rights amongst your gamer friends.
I remember loosing my mind just as much when I'd try to 100% (or more) any of the DK games on Snes or Crash Bandicoot games on PS1.
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
Castlevania MV games have most of their bosses have savepoints near their boss arenas, so there really isn't any boss runbacks in them.
The problem with SS is that most of the boss runbacks are just boring screen runs where you just run past enemies. It doesn't even pass the "the boss runback is actually the first phase of the boss" argument.
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u/coxy_artist Mar 08 '26
You don't have to say Castlevania MV, (Castlevania + Metroid = Metroidvania, they were the OG's).
I'd say that 75% of the bosses have a save point near them. Also, I'd say it's kind of crutial to have the runbacks to build up soul/silk before you fight a boss. Most of the time if there was a long run back, it's because I didn't explore enough and missed a bench that was close by.
Have you played through both HK + SS?
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
I played both HK and SS, those games have annoying boss runbacks that don't really add anything to the game. Where it's mainly you just run past screens and run past enemies. Needing to regain silk makes no sense here because getting your cacoon refills some amount of silk. Also if HK and SS just operated on the save state format like Castlevania then you wouldn't have to worry about refilling soul or silk because you'd just reload on the amount you last had on the last time you saved.
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u/coxy_artist Mar 08 '26
So you want all games to be the same as Castlevania... Also, played or played though?
And no, you get back only 1 bar when you hit the cocoon / soul. If you collect beforehand you can walk in with a full bar.
Sorry, save state?
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
"I like pancakes. So you hate waffles" ass argument. Also it's not like fucking Castlevania to have a save file system where you reload it after dying, jesus fucking christ dude. Yeah I'm sure Resident Evil 4, The Legend of Zelda or any game with a save file system were designed to be like Castlevania.
Castlevania just reloads the last state you were in when you die. So if you had full hearts on save file reload, you respawn with full hearts. Also 1 full silk bar should be enough for any boss fight in Silksong, if you can't fight the boss on that, you're wasting time and better off just getting better with the boss fight. In fact the more time you spend actually fighting the boss fight means you have more time actually getting good fighting it. That's why I don't like boss runbacks as they act as tedious distractions that are removed from the challenge of the boss fight generally.
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u/coxy_artist Mar 08 '26
Since you're being vulgar and rude I will say good day to you. Not interested in continuing a conversation if you can't keep it civil.
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u/GlitteringPositive Mar 08 '26
Lmao if you think I was being rude to you there, you need to grow thicker skin. I don't like it when you were taking what I said in bad faith and strawmanned what I was saying.
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u/Biff3070 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Save rooms are generally right outside clearly marked bossroom doors in castlevania. And if you die in a sketchy area, you can just reload and choose another path. In hollowknight you have to retrace your steps to gather your souls or whatever.
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u/ProfessorVolga Screw Attack Mar 08 '26
gamer who has only played Hollow Knight playing a metroidvania made before 2017:
"hmmm this game kinda giving Hollow Knight vibes..."
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u/settingdogstar Mar 08 '26
Ya'll are so fucking weird thinking Team Cherry, or any little company, has so much power and are the source of all your woes.
Team Cherry did not invent souls like MVs, and HK existing didn't STOP ANYONE FROM MAKING OTHER GAMES.
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u/Shmeeeee23 Mar 08 '26
If youre losing currency from "hours" of playing soulslikes, youre not playing them correctly.
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u/SirHighground1 Mar 08 '26
Games like Metroid Dread killed the idea of boss runbacks for me entirely. If bosses are designed to be challenging then why bother with all the fluff, just spawn me right outside the room when I die.
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
But, then that feels more akin to a boss rush. I'm not personally a fan of spoon fed challenges. I find it can go both ways. Some bosses, you stick a save point around the corner from their door. But some... no Mr. Hero. There's a challenge for you to overcome.
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u/SirHighground1 Mar 08 '26
Because most of the time runbacks aren't a challenge, it's just tedium and artificial challenge that's designed to waste some of your resources for the real fun in the boss fight. It's a minute or two that I can spend learning more of the boss' patterns. Most modern games know this and have put checkpoints/save stations right outside, runback is just an esoteric artifact of outdated game design.
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
Artificial challenge? Do you hear yourself?! It's a video game bruh. All of it is man made. Made in literal computer 'labs'.
It's just not a challenge you enjoy or appreciate. And my contention is: ok - that's fine, but that means there is a swath of experiences germane to the genre that you admit you don't like thus... maybe this isn't your cup of tea when you really take stock.
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u/SirHighground1 Mar 08 '26
Right in this thread people have named a bunch of games that don't have it. I even played through the Igavanias for the first time recently: Aria of Sorrow, Portrait of Ruin, and Order of Ecclesia, to be exact. All of those have save rooms and, most of the time, teleport rooms right next to the boss room. Boss runbacks are hardly a staple of the genre, and I have enjoyed plenty of games within it; in fact, I'd argue that games with runbacks are a minority.
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u/Spinni_Spooder Mar 08 '26
I LOVE Hollow knight but I'm not gonna do the same as them. Ive been planning a metroidvania for years and I'm not gonna have any soulslike elements to the game. Im not gonna make death punishing. I want it to be fast paced, yet something everyone can play. Where it's not to difficult.
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u/Palladiium221 Mar 08 '26
What you hate is the system that hold survivibility of the studios through number of sells. Leading to chasing the less risky formula to assure rentability and so, lack of diversity in the proposition through the same genre. This system is called capitalism.
Team cherry is in no way responsible for that, no more than dark souls is.
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u/Tight_Impression9249 Mar 08 '26
I suspect it is all cyclical. At some point, Souls-likes will fall out of favour. If for no other reason, they will become so cliche that a developer will have their own “Hollow Knight” breakthrough with something novel that becomes an unexpected smash hit. That will start a new direction, which will be its own cycle. The other thing that will happen is that the current crop of Souls-like fans will age, and as I have, their gaming tastes will change. This doesn’t change the short-term though.
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u/zeracine Mar 08 '26
If you died in SOTN you got shoved back to your last save. When you die in soulslikes you keep all the gear you found, shortcuts unlocked etc.
It's actually the better death mechanic of the two.
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u/Tmons22 Mar 08 '26
This post comes off childish tbh, there are plenty of metroidvania games that don’t have that mechanic and to hate Team Cherry for making an amazing game? Weak.
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u/mr_dfuse2 Mar 08 '26
while i share the same distaste for soulslike combat in mv's and boss runbacks (i even hate the concept of bosses at all), not all mv's are like this. plenty of mv's still come out which are more focused on exploration
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u/WhichxWitch Mar 08 '26
You're so right for this. No more bosses, return the means of production to the workers!
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u/AddMoreLayers Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
i even hate the concept of bosses at all
That's one take I would never have expected to see on the silksong sub of all places
Edit: turns out I'm part of r/lostredditors now
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u/mr_dfuse2 Mar 08 '26
haha yeah. but tbh i loved the dark souls games but hated the boss fights. so i could have said that in any sub. i hate the concept of boss fights overall
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u/Moron_at_work Mar 08 '26
This is NOT the silksong sub for gods sake...
Take your cult and go away, PLEASE
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u/AddMoreLayers Mar 08 '26
It's just a simple mistake mate, chill
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u/Moron_at_work Mar 08 '26
No because it is taken over by the cultists and now you/they don't even see that this sub is no hk/ss circlej
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u/AddMoreLayers Mar 08 '26
Well, the post starts with a large hornet screenshot, so I'm pretty sure I wont be the only person making that mistake.
Cultist behavior is annoying though, I think we agree on that
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u/Ness_Stan Mar 08 '26
you hate the concept of bosses?
people shouldn't be allowed opinions sometimes
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u/mr_dfuse2 Mar 08 '26
yup i do, they pull you out of the normal gameplay loop, often force you in an endurance run of not making any mistakes for far too long, introduce difficulty spikes and gatekeep the ending of a game where i usually just want to move on to the next game
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u/Lord_Spy Hollow Knight Mar 08 '26
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you hate difficulty spikes, then? There's certainly level sections that are considerably more punishing than the bosses that sandwich them.
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u/mr_dfuse2 Mar 08 '26
No cause it is not only about the difficulty, it's about being thrown in another gameplay loop then the 95% of the game you were playing. for example i just finished am2r, i loved exploring the game and hunting for all the secrets. enemies were never something that made me have to redo that aspect of the game several times again. but at the final boss, i needed to first learn the patterns which comes with a few deaths inevitably, after which came a test in endurance to see how long i could avoid all those attacks, that is not the gameplay loop for which i loved am2r. I think it took me about half an hour and a few retries to defeat the boss, but at that point i just wanted the game to be over cause i had explored everything already and that is why i play the game. there was another person here a while ago who said the same, he stated that he often just drops a game when reaching the end boss, cause there is no more exploration left after that. i did the same in dark souls 1, dropped the game and watched the ending on youtube. dark souls 3 i did finish but used a summon for the final boss to quickly get it over with
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u/Lord_Spy Hollow Knight Mar 09 '26
I kinda get your point, but at the same time with how combat oriented lots of MVs have gotten I don't fully get the distinction. If anything, bosses are often considerably better balanced than regular enemies since you have to beat them, whereas lots of elite enemies are not as thoroughly tested and tweaked.
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Mar 08 '26
i disagree with you on everything except runbacks. man i fucking HATE runbacks, pure artificial game lengthener that some fans have managed to delude themselves into believing is actually clever game design. im glad the newer souls games have mostly gotten rid of them
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u/Lord_Spy Hollow Knight Mar 08 '26
Runbacks can be good, but they need to be things you can actually git gud at rather than just regular traversal. Ironically enough, The Last Judge is an example of this: hard at first, trivial once you get it down.
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
I'm just going to say it and accept the hate.. I don't think you're good at these games.
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Mar 08 '26
maybe you were blessed by miyazaki to be born as some kind of dark souls prodigy who could sight read every attack pattern and delayed hit timing to beat every boss first try without having to learn from your mistakes or improve at the game so you never had to worry about runbacks
unfortunately i was not, i am a normal person
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
That's kind of what i mean. I disagree and your response swings to something comically exadurated.
I'm pretty normal. If anyting id say runbacks and other failures further improve your ability to respond to the challenge at hand and future challenges as well.
I won't say the game never frustrated me. I guess I'm cut from a cloth where I want the game to kind of fight back a little, you know?
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Mar 08 '26
i have no issue with the game throwing incredibly difficult challenges at me that take several attempts to complete, but it gets really annoying really quick when i have to make a sometimes up to several minutes long walk back to the challenge every time i want to try said challenge again
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
No one's saying incredibly difficult. At least I'm not.
Incredibly difficult is not several attempts. Incredibly difficult is a week's time +. You had to adopt new strategies that pushed you outside yourself. You maybe had to ask for help.
And yes, factoring in the path with the bosses difficulty is a part of it all. Having to manage your resources for efficiency and all that.
Several attempts... That's just normal difficulty.
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Mar 08 '26
how difficult something needs to be to be considered incredibly difficult isn’t relevant to what i was getting at, whether you call it normal difficulty or incredible difficulty or whatever adjective you want difficulty my point still stands that the run backs get really annoying really quick
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
....
.....
. . . ....
I'm just gonna go back to my earlier statement that I don't think this genre is for you or you're not that good. Maybe watching a marvel movie is more your speed?
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Mar 08 '26
you’re being ridiculous, just because i have grievances with a game doesn’t mean i shouldn’t play it or that it’s not for me. people are allowed to have criticisms of things that they like, if i limited my gaming to only games that i thought were perfect with no issues then i wouldn’t have any games to play
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u/blahblah567433785434 Mar 08 '26
absolutely. and I apologize for it. I wrote that whilst in transition to something.
Your response still gave me quite an eye roll. HK had a runback mechanic. It's not like this blindsided you.
I'm sorry for being immature and crass. Genuinely.
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u/FuneralAbstraction Mar 08 '26
I hate losing what I’ve spent hours grinding for,
Metroid and Castlevania are actually the less lenient games here. If you die, you lose any items, equipment, levels, map progress, etc. before your last save. In the Hollow Knight games, you do have a chance to lose no progress at all, besides any wasted consumables I suppose.
and and I absolutely despise doing the "walk of shame" (boss runbacks) over and over again every time I die. I really wish developers would stop mixing the best genre with the worst one.
Right, but that's common in video games. It doesn't really matter if it's about having to do sections before a boss fight again or not. Effectively, dying on a boss' harder phases and having to do the easier parts over again is just as "bad", and that's commonplace. A lot of older Metroidvanias have lengthy and difficult sequences with basically no saves. Just look at the first Phazon Mines visit in Metroid Prime.
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u/DoubleSummon Mar 08 '26
The best genre (soulslike) with a genre I like Metroidvania. I see nothing wrong you can play other games if you don't like it, it's not like every new Metroidvania is soulslike.
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u/megalogwiff Mar 08 '26
There are so many MVs that aren't like that. If you really can't find any, how about go on r/metroidvania and ask for recommendations with a positive sounding post, instead of this one?
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u/JumpIsMagic Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
I think that’s a little petulant and catastrophic. There’s plenty of metroidvanias without any souls-like mechanics. But metroidvanias have always been very close to RPGs, especially with the ‘vania’ side of things. As popular as Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls have always been it was sort of inevitable that the two would meet mechanically, Hollow Knight or not.
Personally without any RPG mechanics I typically find metroidvanias to be a little simplistic. It’s more than welcome to have more unique and fleshed out experiences than a dozen easy-peasy hallway simulators.
But if that’s what you like, a half dozen of them get released a month on Steam. You aren’t hurting for more simplistic experiences.
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u/nelflyn Mar 08 '26
I can see your point, because there really are a lot of games like this. Also, it's funny that you get downvoted, when there is a post, in this very sub on the alsame topic that was received very well. You're not alone in your opinion. However, there are a LOT of metroidvanias on the market from the past few years and there are definitely those that don't follow that trend. Team Cherry found their own kind of metroidvania and many people liked it. So they created a sub genre, or established it. And people listed plenty exceptions here. You'll be fine.
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u/lokoovania Mar 08 '26
I personally don't think Hollow Knight has much to do with Souls games. It's a bit difficult, but that's about it.
I think Salt and Sanctuary and Grime would fit better as Souls games, Hollow Knight is just "difficult".
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u/Gemmaugr Mar 10 '26
Agreed on all parts, Silksong too. Excepting HK overall. HK was a great game, despite some very weird inclusion choices (runbacks, lost/found map, map location/geo gathering charms, etc).
I despise souls-likes. They've done absolutely nothing but ruin many games and genres. Stamina, blocking/parrying, scripted actions, "git gud" toxicity, runbacks, OTS cam, and more.
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u/Spinjitsuninja Mar 08 '26
Okay but, on the other hand: What Metroidvanias before Hollow Knight…?
Like, sure, maybe some trends weren’t as common. But that’s also in part because the genre had died down for a while.
Hollow Knight wasn’t just a successful Metroidvania. It was THE successful Metroidvania. The one that, after such a long time without anything notable coming out of the genre (at least not that many games), this stood out as a big success.
You can dislike the trends, but these games might not exist at all if not for Hollow Knight. (Also, why hate Team Cherry specifically? Why not hate the trend itself?)
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u/MakoMary Mar 08 '26
>What Metroidvanias before Hollow Knight…?
Well, there's Metroid, for one. Four of them, in fact. One of them got a remake, and then there's three 3D games of varying metroidvania-ness, so that's five-to-eight depending on your standards. And Castlevania, for another. About seven of them, plus a couple other 3D games (though I dunno how much Metroid those ones inherited). And Vampire Killer and Simon's Quest, if we count those.
>You can dislike the trends, but these games might not exist at all if not for Hollow Knight. (Also, why hate Team Cherry specifically? Why not hate the trend itself?)
I mean if it starts the trend you hate, I think it's logical to dislike the trendsetter as well.
And while it was a major shot in the arm for the genre, games like Ori and Guacamelee were still released to critical acclaim, even if many of them were only cult classics. Nintendo was still working on reviving Metroid and Bloodstained had a record-smashing Kickstarter campaign that was seen through. The genre would still exist without Hollow Knight, even if it would've been niche. Well, more niche than it already is, outside of Hollow Knight.
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u/Spinjitsuninja Mar 08 '26
The Metroid series when HK released was considered pretty dead at the time, and Castlevania wasn’t doing all that well. (I haven’t looked into the 3DS games but they don’t seem that popular.)
So Guacamelee and Ori. Is that it?
Like I said, the genre was pretty quiet until Hollow Knight. Sure, there’s a ton of games following what Hollow Knight did nowadays- but the genre is also more alive than it ever used to be too.
I’m not saying no Metroidvanias would ever exist again had Hollow Knight not released. But it did breathe a lot of life into the genre again. Now there’s tons of Metroidvanias.
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u/Biff3070 Mar 08 '26
You're proving his point. A metroidvania released these days is more likely to emulate hollowkight rather than metroid or castlevania.
I know this because I've been looking for a metroidvania to play all weekend and every damn game has parrying, dodging and freaking runbacks for "souls".
If I die I'd rather just choose another path. That's the beauty of metroidvanias. I'm not interested in constantly backtracking to pick up my crap.
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u/Spinjitsuninja Mar 08 '26
But my point is, in the indie scene especially, there just weren’t many notable Metroidvanias copying the Metroid or Castlevania style though. This wasn’t a booming genre prior to Hollow Knight.
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u/Biff3070 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
There aren't many notable metroidvanias copying the metroid or castlevania style right now tho. They're mostly hollowknight like games.
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u/Spinjitsuninja Mar 08 '26
My point is, the number of games copying Metroid or Castlevania prior to HK has remained mostly the same, even if low. HK didn’t stop those kinds of games from existing.
Also, I feel like there are a few Castlevania-likes in development at least right now. I feel like that franchise has been growing in popularity lately.
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u/MakoMary Mar 08 '26
Games LIKE Ori and Guacamelee. Those were examples, not the sole instances. And again, even with Hollow Knight inspiring a lot more indie metroidvanias, the point still stands that other metroidvanias existed before then and the genre namers were seeing either a genre revival or a spiritual successor independent of Hollow Knight. Metroidvanias existed before Hollow Knight and would’ve existed without it.
And what I’m getting at is that now the genre takes a lot of mechanics from Hollow Knight and the Souls games that weren’t especially prominent before then. Naturally, people who don’t like those changes to the formula aren’t going to like it when those changes become widespread.
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u/Kamayari Mar 08 '26
I'm with you I don't like souls like games but a huge fan of metroidvania games. But Hollow Knight/Silksong are NOT souls like games. They are metroidvania but they are difficult. These 2 games made the whole industry think of making more metroidvania games from the success they got.
When you say souls like I always imagined games that have Stamina, games like Grime and others are metroidvania / souls like which I really didn't like.
You can say whatever you like, it your personal opinion and it's your right :)
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u/Cyan_Light Mar 08 '26
I hate soulslikes too but don't share the rest of the opinion, I'm glad Silksong exists for the many people that love it and it does nothing to affect my enjoyment of other games. It's not like people are incapable of making other types of metroidvanias anymore, we're even still getting igavanias from the man himself. The genre has just widened to include more games we don't like and that's fine, nobody actually lost anything.
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u/Moron_at_work Mar 08 '26
You're wrong, unfortunately. The focus of the genre is now on soulslikes/soulsvanias. Yes there might be still some small exceptions, but all the main games are now soulslikes/soulsvanias (see MIO as current "big title")
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u/Cyan_Light Mar 09 '26
Are you under the impression that people who make soulslike metroidvanias would've made non-soulslike metroidvanias if it weren't for HK/SS? Isn't the more likely scenario that they just don't make a metroidvania at all?
Your complaint only makes sense if we assume there's a set number of metroidvanias made every year with the specifics varying based on what has been popular, but obviously that's not how game development actually works. If those games weren't such huge successes then fewer people would be driven to make metroidvanias at all, you'd see less games overall rather than more games of the types you prefer.
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u/falconpunch1989 Mar 08 '26
pre 2010s game design - you lose everything when you die and go back to last checkpoint - CLASSIC, S TIER
Soulslike game design - you lose everything when you die and go back to last checkpoint but the game gives you a chance to recover it - EVIL, TRASH, POSSIBLY WOKE
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u/SnooPets630 Mar 08 '26
This genre is either coping Metroid formula, Castlevania formula, or Hollow Knight formula. It’s just how this genre is
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u/g0n1s4 Mar 08 '26
If you aren't copying one of those games then you aren't making a Metroidvania bro, it's in the title.
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u/SnooPets630 Mar 08 '26
Exactly. I tried to tell that this genre is born as copy-like, so there’s nothing weird in it’s adaptation to new, more successful formula. For me, it’s just like complaining to Mortal Kombat 9, because in Fighting games we now have high costing story modes
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u/IM_MT_ Mar 08 '26
typical reddit, downvoted to hell for having an opinion and/or wanting to have a discussion about it
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u/DaveyGamersLocker Mar 08 '26
I don't blame you. Runbacks were never a staple of classic Metroidvanias. Metroid games ALWAYS have save points right outside the boss room. Runbacks are definitely a new age Metroidvania thing, and it's painfully clear that a lot of games (including Silksong) only do it because Hollow Knight did it. As someone who loathes having my time wasted, it's pretty hard for me to appreciate that.
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u/Moron_at_work Mar 08 '26
Thank you so much!
Yes you are 100% right! And although you'll be downvoted to oblivion by the Cult, be aware you're not alone.
Yes, hk/ss have destroyed the genre. It went from exploration, progression, movement and discovery to "grinding bosses for hours".
It's such a sad development and so many new games are now basically soulslikes/soulsvanias.
Unfortunately this will not stop due to the Cult.
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u/MakoMary Mar 08 '26
Nah, I getcha. There's still some good non-souls MVs out there, but a lot of the high-profile games are strongly influenced by soulslikes, either directly by Dark Souls or indirectly through Hollow Knight. I still liked the first Hollow Knight quite a bit, but the games run through almost all my Metroidvania pet peeves, and I really wish devs wouldn't copy those pet peeves so often.
Lots of corpse runs, lots of runbacks, lots of dreary dark fantasy apocalypses, and lots and lots of tough platforming challenges. It irks me when my primary rewards are just sacks of money I'll risk losing anyways, and it always drives me up a wall when MVs have obtuse map systems. And now everyone and their moms are imitating the simplified, thick-line HK artstyle where you play as a little guy with a cloak that covers their arms when they run. It's not a bad style, but it's a rather saturated look. When they did that cloak-run-thing on a whole alien man in Shadow Labrynth, it starts to get a little ridiculous.
Admittedly, I'm also biased because my MV expectations were set by Bloodstained and not Hollow Knight, so my tastes are weirdly old-school. Just gimme more Castlevanias with save points before the boss rooms, an auto-mapper that tells me the map completion, and no more slingshoting buzzsaw obstacle courses. I just wanna explore without running into a bed of spikes constantly. At least we've got Belmont's Curse and Scarlet Engagement later this year, so I can't complain too much
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u/Juantsu2552 Mar 08 '26
I don’t remember ever spending hours grinding in Silksong tho?
Like, I can understand the frustration of the game being too difficult (I myself have very strong opinions on Silksong’s difficulty), but grinding is not one of them.
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u/erk8955 Mar 08 '26
Its interesting that you lovemetroidvania but dislike souls games because castlevania is grandfather of soulslikes.
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u/NextGenGamezz Mar 08 '26
There is no best and worse genre , for me I like both , some people like souls some like metrodvinia some like first person shooters, each has it's own preference
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u/MrMetraGnome Mar 08 '26
There are a lot of soulslite MV's out there. Like, A LOT. But, there are also a lot of more unique ones. Right now, I'm really enjoying Bio Gun, which feels like Osmosis Jones meets Hollow Knight, but with guns. The only Souls mechanic is the optional save points and marking your last death position, but no death running. There is a bug here and there, but It's a really good game and deserves to be a lot more popular.
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u/Biff3070 Mar 08 '26
As someone who scoured steam for a new metroidvania to play this weekend, I kind of agree. Finding a game without a damn parry mechanic was difficult enough let alone one that doesn't make you backtrack for 5 minutes every time you die.
Having said that I've been playing the game Primal Planet and it's an underrated gem. Amazing map, perfect movement and looks gorgeous. No soulslike crap if you're looking for something a little more chill.
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u/DaveyGamersLocker Mar 08 '26
Oh, don't even get me started on parrying. It can be a cool mechanic, but when EVERY game feels the need to shoehorn it in, it gets pretty ridiculous. Even Sonic has parrying now. Why?
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u/bikeking8 Mar 08 '26
I completely agree and we're in the minority, yes. I avoid any so called metroidvania that has parries, QTEs, roguelite mechanics, stamina, or the requirement to memorize fighting game combos. Miss me with that crap.
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u/xtoc1981 Mar 08 '26
Yeah, the game is overrated. Also, i still dont understand why we need to include castlevania to the genre. The main thing it did was adding levelup, and 99%of those metroid like titles doesnt do that. Same about soulslike genre. Its not like hard games combat exists before it. Its not even a genre
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u/Sycherthrou Mar 08 '26
Runbacks aren't when the checkpoint isn't near the boss. Mario doesn't have runbacks even though you have to go through a whole level to get to Bowser. That's just part of the bossfight, phase 0 functionally.
Runbacks are when, in dark souls 1, there are no obstacles between you and the boss, just 1 whole minute of holding the forward button and spamming dodge roll. It's brainless and it takes long, all you're doing is running... back. The only runback I can think of in Silksong are the clockwork soldiers with that long hallway with 3 big guys you have to jump over.
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u/AramaticFire Mar 08 '26
Aren’t there a lot of quality games that do not have Souls elements? Like very obvious big name entries like Metroid Dread, Ori and the Will of the Wisps, Animal Well, and Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown?
You’re not obligated to play every game release in a particular genre, but there’s plenty here that you can play and enjoy.